Blogger Penelope Trunk wrote last year in defense of poor grammar. And then recently she did it again. She claims that it’s better to judge people by their ideas, creativity, and enthusiasm than by how well they write. The implication is that as long as they can get their ideas across, the grammar (and, by extension, punctuation and spelling) isn’t all that important. She goes on to claim that good grammar might actually hold you back in your career!
For several years I made my living as a writer and editor, so obviously I’m going to disagree. But I don’t disagree violently. I rather like some of Penelope’s arguments. She just applies them with a bit too heavy of a hand.
Back when I edited other people’s words for my supper, I edited all of David Pogue’s books. (Since then, he’s become the technology columnist for the New York Times.) His copy, always clear and engaging, was a pleasure to edit. Because his books sold like mad, my bosses always gave me plenty of time to work on them.
Most of my other authors wrote B- and C-list titles, which meant I got far less time to edit them. Too bad, because none of those authors wrote as well as Pogue. So I developed a hierarchy of editing that let me do the most good with the time I had. My first pass through someone’s text fixed problems of organization and structure, making the text more expository. My second pass fixed problems of logic and fact that would confuse or mislead readers. My third pass fixed errors of syntax and style. My final pass fixed grammar, spelling, and punctuation errors. I stopped editing when I ran out of time โ and I seldom made it to the final pass.
Let’s be real. If a writer confuses its and it’s or writes sight for site, nobody’s going to misunderstand. And Penelope argues that the goal should be simply to get your ideas across. If I got through just the first two passes in my hierarchy, I made dramatic improvements to the text’s ability to do that. In comparison, grammar, punctuation, and spelling were just window dressing.
Penelope also condemns impeccable grammar as the product of “demented, perfectionist thinking.” As a recovering perfectionist, I can say with some authority that for most tasks, perfection is at best a waste of time and at worst pathological. Anything you do can always be done better, but past some point the effort to make it better isn’t worth the return. Unless you’re disarming a bomb, good enough is just right.
But I can’t go all the way with Penelope and say that grammar doesn’t matter. After all, it gives us the tools to make sentences and paragraphs clear and interesting. I have to think Penelope isn’t opposed to clarity and interestingness, but rather to needless attention to detail.
The trick, then, is in determining the point past which polish doesn’t pay, and that depends entirely on what you’re writing and who will read it. If you’re writing something fast for your friends, like a text message or a quick e-mail, type it, send it, and don’t worry about it. At the other end of the spectrum stands high literature, which deserves your utmost effort โ and which, sorry to say, you are probably not writing. For everything in between, make the right reasonable effort to get it right, and then stop. Reread that letter to the editor or proposal to your boss and fix what you find. Hire someone to edit your resume or business plan or any other document that may form your first or only impression. But then if a grammar, punctuation, or spelling mistake slips through, let the brilliance of your ideas outshine it.
I may sweat the details too much on this blog, but I write it because I love to hear from you. Just like I loved doing my morning radio show for a handful of listeners.
Comments
434 responses to “Defending good grammar, sort of”
Aaaaahhhhh! My boys better not see this. They have terrible spelling and grammar, which drives us nuts. However, I will agree the last point once someone has already learned how to write properly. I know it’s a personal issue for me, but I view someone with blatant errors as less intelligent (or lazy). Of course, you can now point out all my errors in this post. :)
My older boy is severely spelling challenged as well, and it makes my head pop sometimes. But he’s plenty bright and gets As and Bs, so obviously it’s not holding him back too much. I do intend to teach him how to spell, though.
When I get resumes for open positions on my team, a typo or two, or even a blatant error, doesn’t scare me off. But when I see a pattern of carelessness or evidence that the person doesn’t know how to write, the resume goes on the bottom of the pile. People who work for me need to be able to communicate reasonably well in writing; it’s part of the job.
I was once almost excused from an interview because I had misspelled “rapport” on my resume. For an interior designer position. Needless to say, I didn’t stay at that job long, but as an already careful editor of my own work (and my own worst critic), I’ve been very bashful about submitting my resume since then. It’s comforting to know that not everyone is that critical of small errors.
I am a manager in a software company and I review resumes all the time. While I notice all writing errors — as a recovering editor, how can I not — they don’t keep me from inviting someone with great skills to interview. Now, if someone’s resume was a right mess, with tons of grammatical errors, I might reconsider, because all of my positions require the ability to communicate in writing.
yeah, I agree with Michael and yup, I can totally relate to your post, Jim.
Nice post. I know many highly intelligent people who often misspell words because it’s not that important to them. For the average folk, editing errors is all they have.
I’m a natural speller; misspelling a word would probably make my head pop! Being able to recognize structural and organizational issues in a document is a skill most people aren’t born with, so yes, all most can do is look for rule errors in their writing.
That’s a great point. I appreciate people who have your skill, but it makes my head pop when people limit their fantastic editing skills to spelling errors, therefore deeming themselves the king of pointing out people’s mistakes. So I suppose I agree in part with Trunk, that we shouldn’t limit people based on that, because there are so many creative people who don’t give a rat’s behind about grammatical errors … after all, it gives other people a job :)
Again, loved the post!
I had to learn that skill! Make no mistake. Glad you enjoyed this!
very great point. really good post by the way.
http://enjoibeing.wordpress.com/
As a former managing editor myself (regional magazines), I must agree. Grammar does matter. And I proudly wear the “grammar nazi” title!
Thank you for the reminder. While I may be demented (in other areas of my life) …and I’m definitely a perfectionist…these characteristics do not combine to make my views about good writing irrelevant.
They just make me odd. ;)
Good writing never goes out of style! But personally, I’m trying to eliminate needless perfectionism. I try to make what I write as perfect as the situation needs.
I’ve been a journalist since I started working, and am now an editor with http://lifestyle.8flo.com, an online mag, I guess this background information is sufficient to help you guess that I’m definitely more for “sound grammar”!
I live in a country where good grammar isn’t really appreciated, or even practised, particularly when it’s spoken. So, I tend to cut myself some slack when I have to convey certain ideas to certain groups of people, in the hope that they will understand me more easily.
It’s also too tiring holding an imaginary red pen all the time, pointing out people’s grammatical errors in between conversations (I used to do that!) I suspect I’d become less popular because of that!
Hi Jim,
I found your post very interesting, and I really would like to get your opinion about my situation. I wrote a post last week called “When you blog in a language that is not yours” (you can read it here http://wp.me/pXsUB-ye) where I ask my readers to be honest and tell me if I should quit blogging.
I hope to get your feedback. Thanks
elenasc.wordpress.com
As someone who lived briefly in Germany and at the time spoke German more or less fluently, I understand the difficulty in expressing your inner self in a language that’s not native to you. But at the same time, if you keep trying, maybe you’ll achieve it!
Great post. I’m a SAT Critical Reading tutor, and I tell my students that I do NOT cover the Writing/Grammar portion because I am ‘grammatically challenged.’
Some of the most brilliant people I know are in the same boat!
Thanks for a great read. I remember many a time when I was younger my mom going through my essays with a fine tooth comb to make sure spelling, grammar etc, was perfect. As an adult, I know my writing is not perfect, but it’s nice to hear that perfection is not as important as some may be led to belive.
I think it’s better to spend the time working on your ideas! There’s more bang for the buck there.
I really do think that when letter writing was the way most non face-to-face communication occurred, people knew how to write. The universal use of the telephone then negatively impacted on writing. Now e-speak has obliterated it. I’m not an English major. Yet I cringe when I see the errors on professional signs and menus, and in books and articles. It’s relentless. And what bothers me the most is that when we throw grammar and punctuation out the window, the meaning of what we write can get garbled. There’s enough misunderstanding out there in the world today. This just adds to it.
Great point about how as communication has gotten easier, adherence to “the rules” has slipped. But I just chuckle now when I see mistakes on signs and such. It’s so much less stressful than my former reaction, which was to go into full grammar nazi mode.
My daughter will tell you that the worst day of her life was when I asked to speak with the manager of a restaurant to tell him that their sign outside was incorrect. It was a permanent metal sign, affixed to the wall. It said, “When your hungry, we are here.” The manager had no understanding of what I was trying to tell him. My daughter was completely mortified.
Yeah, I can well imagine that didn’t go over well, either with your daughter or the manager!
Agree entirely. I used to be in a discipline that did take grammar to its perfectionistic worst; that was not good, and it did impede the flow of ideas.
But saying that grammar shouldn’t matter at all reminds me of people who think appearance shouldn’t matter at all — it does matter, and to deny that is just going to hinder you in your career. Grammar is the same way. Your ideas need a certain amount of clarity and polish if you want people to take them seriously.
Apprearance certainly has its place. I’ve hired some brilliant software testers (that’s what I do for a living now) who had no clue about how to put themselves together, though — and was glad to have them!
Well, there are certainly some work cultures (many of them CS-related) where appearance is thought to be irrelevant — although having had some experience with said cultures, it seems to me that the pride in not caring about your appearance translates into its own, just-as-strictly-enforced aesthetic.
I know what you mean. Here in Indiana we have elevated not caring what you look like to an art form.
Hmm. I’m not sure if I agree here – grammar and spelling are the tools that help make writing clear, although perhaps not interesting. I don’t care how enthusiastic the writing is – if I see multiple errors or text speak, I tune it out as ignorant. It’s just too much bother to decipher it when I could be reading something else.
Interesting post – grats on Freshly Pressed :)
Oh, no argument — grammar, spelling, and punctuation help us express our ideas. I only advocate applying the right amount of attention to these things based on what you’re writing and who will read it. Editing a text message to a fine sheen, for example, seems kind of out of hand.
Hooray for common sense! Grammar does matter, and you’re right, shooting for perfect is probably shooting yourself in the foot. I don’t mind falling short of the ideal, as long as people accept it’s there for a reason.
Thanks for the support! As you can see from other comments, I don’t have universal agreement!
Somebody famous probably said something relevent about not pleasing all the people all of the time….
I do some part time work as a Script Reader and correct spelling and grammar mistakes as I go along. Sometimes they make me smile, but other times I’m left a little deflated. If you want to be a writer, isn’t it because you love words? I can’t imagine doing what I do without having read the hundreds and hundreds of books I’ve read, and reading SHOWS you what good writing looks like. Anyway, life’s too short to get really worked up about it. Today.
Grammar may matter in things that will come to the attention of the General Public, but, for those things that are of a personal nature, or less ‘important’ (I’ll let you be the judge of what is important), it doesn’t have to be the best. I say this because my sentence structure is embarrassingly bad (which, I believe is not my fault, I write in the same way I speak. I guess I ought to be a speech-writer). At any rate, it’s all contextual. I agree with you, though, that the basics cannot be ignored (unless the author is new to the language and/or incapable of clear thought due to any combination of things).
I dunno, I thought your comment was written well enough, and I don’t detect errors in your sentence structure! And being able to write conversationally is a real gift.
Well, I did try extra-hard on that comment! It may be a gift, but it’s no good when trying to write a technical report!
By the way, would you mind reading through something I’ve written? (Well, when I get round to finishing it?) I need an honest opinion on it, from someone I don’t know, and honestly, you seem like the perfect candidate!
Sadly, I’m stretched thin enough already, so I couldn’t be much help to you.
Grammar and spelling matter to me, but as a type A, right brain (or is it left brain?) artsy fartsy person I have no patience and I want to get whatever I just wrote, out there quickly. I am glad for the Grammar Nazi — makes us all better at what we do – just sayin’ <— can I say that?
Blessings,
Ava
xox
You are always welcome to jus’ say anything you like here at Down the Road! :-) And for every person out there who just wants to get their ideas out there, there is someone who would be happy to edit your words for you! If the document or audience makes it worth the time, of course!
I’m in grad school studying to be a high school English teacher, and the best way I’ve read to explain the importance of grammar to my students is to explain that, like many other things in life, written and spoken communication has a set of rules that you must follow to be taken seriously.
I ask them what would happen if I got out onto a football field to play without understanding any of the rules of the game. They laugh, imagining me, their 5’2″ female teacher playing football. Of course, it would be a disaster. Well, writing is a lot like football in that way.
The key to using grammar rules is understanding appropriateness–sometimes it is more appropriate to use non-standard grammar. Other times, Standardized English will be more useful.
This is a great analogy. At the same time, a quick few scrimmages in a vacant lot doesn’t require quite the same attention to the rules as your average NFL game on Sunday! I think the same goes for the things we write.
I love this post; thank you so much – I am called upon to proofread documents at work, and I have come across much of what you talk about here.
Thank you!
As a recent graduate of English Ed. I totally agree! Thanks for sharing.
Glad to know I’m in like-minded company!
As an author, spelling and grammar are really important to me. Poorly edited books turn the reader off very quickly and have a knock-on effect on the author’s standing and reputation. Well edited books, letters, emails or practically anything, are mandatory as far as I am concerned.
I agree that when I read a novel or a history (my current favorite genre) and find grammar and spelling errors, I’m turned off. But when I used to edit books, they were always about software and programming. While I didn’t like seeing such errors in them, they seldom hindered the reader’s ability to get value from them.
Reviewing the state of literature today prompted me to self-publish my Pazuzu Trilogy on LULU in 2009. Before then, I received blind rejections from professional publishers, until I grew confused and sick. Despite the great and original story I felt compelled to tell, I knew I wasn’t a good writer – technically, but a lot of horrible books make it to print – and they’re still coming. Some are huge market successes. After nearly a year, a literary agent finally replied with personalized information, citing issues such as tense, incomplete sentences and typos. As my education is confined to a BA in painting and drawing, with a minor in English Literature, there were gaps in my writing I didn’t know existed. So, I embarked on refining my writing skills. Like everyone who tries, I am still improving (the struggle is resistance to lazy thinking). My effort has resulted in the fourth revision of my trilogy this year.
I paid to have the first half of my trilogy, Pazuzu – Book One, edited at Llumina Press. Still, after that, I decided I wanted an active voice in the story (which I should have used to begin with). My next step was to revise my trilogy and publish on LULU again. The good that’s come of my expense was a real eye-opener to my lousy grammar. For years, people have stated to me “write for yourself.” That advice undermines writers. My motto now is “write so that others understand what you say.” Grammar is important. If writers aren’t writing for others, the extant of their activity amounts to mental masturbation. The only way around the barrier that erects is to exploit a niche market of readers and convince them to pay for redundancy.
Even Stephen King has an editor. And also, it is exceedingly difficult to get the attention of a publisher. There are way more people who want to write than there are publishing houses to publish it all. And the key to getting a book deal is to prove to the publisher how the book will sell. They would print 700 pages of the word “oink” if they thought it would sell a million copies.
Oink! Is that not the truth!?!?!?!! And my mom, being a huge Stephen King fan, told me that he has 6-8 different people who are paid to read his manuscripts, each looking for a different aspect to be sure the book is as readable to everyone as possible. Having just self-published my first book (non-fiction), I did all of the work myself (cover design, layout, editing, even the index, which could have used a bit more editing LOL!). I had four other people read it before I read it for the last edit. The last edit was for punctuation and spelling, word order, etc. My biggest challenge was changing the structure of my sentences to be more โbook-likeโ and less โconversation-likeโ. I write almost everything about the same way I talk. I have a quirky way of putting my words together โbackwardsโ a lot of the time, just an โAmberโ thing. So, even in the last edit, I found places where I had switched the word order. In some cases it actually changed the meaning of the sentence altogether (but if it didnโt I left it, b/c it made the text feel more โmeโ like). I do feel that grammar today has fallen โvictimโ to the same mindset as how people dress when they go out. Today, I am often โoverdressedโ compared to the other people I encounter at restaurants, shopping, even at work! And just try following a 16 year olds Facebook posts, and you will find that their English in no way resembles anything school teaches. Some of it, I cannot even begin to decipher! Great post, and good reminder to โjust say whoaโ when you get too caught up in perfecting every word. :)(:
You know, I think a dedicated writer can learn to write in different styles. I’ve done it. I was once a technical writer, and I moved from writing voluminous “system documentation” to writing very, very spare online Help. Very different styles, and it took me a year to get the hang of it, but with diligent practice I made it. Perhaps you could train yourself similarly, in whatever style you’re going after!
Well written, well thought out post. I really enjoyed this, and I’ll jump on board the Grammar Nazi Brigade any day!
Many thanks! I am a recovering grammar nazi, I must admit.
I think too many people forget that grammar “gives us the tools to make sentences and paragraphs clear and interesting.”
Or never knew in the first place.
I think too many people forget that grammar “gives us the tools to make sentences and paragraphs clear and interesting”.
I’m a junior Communication major at the University of Scranton, and my professors are HUGE sticklers about grammar. However, so am I. :) I try to keep grammar and spelling consistent on texts and emails instead of using all of the abbreviations. Have you heard stories of people writing essays with “U” and “R” instead of “you” and “are?” It seems as though the AP Stylebook can only go so far, but I wish everyone could own a copy… That’s in a perfect world, of course. :)
Whoa, even I have to draw the line at “U R” in an essay submitted in college. Sheesh!
Wow! Line drawn for sure!
Grammar is form, ideas are style. Both are needed to communicate effectively. Consider the difference punctuation makes with this sentence:
Woman without her man is nothing.
Woman without her man, is nothing.
Woman–without her–man is nothing.
Yup. And then there’s the correct placement of only. Oh, don’t get me started!
The problem is that some people confuse casual with careless with vigilantly incorrect. Making proper grammar a habit couldn’t possibly hurt. I was trained to type with proper grammar, and thus, personally, it’s much more time consuming for me to type less formally.
I’m long past the point where “Y do U type like dat?” affects me. If I ever lose a job because of proper grammar, odds are, it’s not a job I really wanted anyway.
But then, haven’t studies been done where having a Ph.D keeps people from certain low-end jobs?
Great point. I advocate building basic grammar skills and making them a habit.
I agree with most of what has been said here. There is a difference between “needless perfectionism” and letting grammar go entirely. The grammar should be appropriate for both the message and the audience.
Bad spelling just irks me. I regard it as a sign of laziness. Just about every email/blogging/word processing application has spell-check capabilities. A document littered with spelling errors tells me that the author was not bothered to click the “spell check” button.
http://runningforautism.wordpress.com
Spell checks are an author’s worst enemy. I’ve screwed up my writing because I accepted automated “suggestions.” The feature also deadens one’s own mind. The best approach when writing is “read what you’ve written,” on top of consciously improving one’s vocabulary and spelling. Seriously, people need to read email and posts before they hit submit. The effort gives a writer a chance to reconsider if he or she is communicating exactly what he or she wants to say.
Excellent comments and I love this post. I have to agree wholeheartedly with Isylumn. Technology is fantastic but I’m sure that most literate people would agree it has done nothing for the general public when it comes to writing. It makes me crazy that spelling and grammar seem to be on the decline. Spell check is great but it is making people stupid as they no longer have to make the effort to spell. We retain less and less information since computers can do it for us.
The obsession with texting and acronyms has spawned stuff that doesn’t even resemble the original words. I cringe when I read the posts of today’s youth as it is barely comprehensible and I am only in my 40’s. Spending a few hours on Facebook will boggle your mind. I often pause to wonder how much of this new lexicon leaks into situations which require the “Queen’s English” and I shudder.
I am a technophile, lover of language and an avid reader so my point is not to bash technology but merely to point out some of its negative effects. I knew we were in trouble when I had to explain to my 13 year old cousin why it is not a good idea to rely on spell check or grammar check etc.
Grammar Nazi’s unite!!! :)
My 13-year-old son is seriously spelling challenged. I honestly think he just doesn’t have a head for it. He will misspell the same word three different ways in the same document. For him, it’s not laziness, though it really looks like it to his teachers!
I have the same problem. Mine is caused by a brain virus, seriously. I do believe cognitive impedences and brain abnormalities need to be taken into consideration by parents, teachers and professors when noticing these spelling abnormalities, poor syntax and when ideas are cot conveyed well in writing, yet the writer is able to articulate well when speaking. Please consider this medical factoid.
Yes, you clearly can’t automatically assume anything about a person if their spelling or grammar is poor. One of my sons is genuinely spelling challenged. I think his brain doesn’t “see” words the way most brains do. I am going to try to teach him to spell, but I expect that he will find spelling mysterious all his life.
I have similar problems I found spelling and writing in school painful and would sit for ages trying to work out how to spell a word then forget what it was that I was trying to write. Only now in my mid twenties am I starting to get my head around it all and its taken huge amount of effort. Spell checkers and dictionaries only help when you can spell enough of the word to find it.
AS far as sentence structure goes I mess that up frequently too, even when speaking, often to the amusement of my friends, saying things like “can you pass the tv from on top of my wallet?”. It drives me nuts! The best way I found to deal with it is to laugh it off which often comes across as not caring. I do care, but its part of who I am. Grammar nazi are great and I am so glad you are around to edit books and other documents so I can read and learn. But please don’t just decide someone is stupid or lazy because they make a mistake.
I’ve always thought it tragic how editors at major publishing houses rarely get time to completely and fully edit a manuscript – plus, they usually have to do this work in the evenings and on weekends due to their busy schedules. I don’t think editing should be something that’s happening “around the edges” of an editor’s duties. But too often, editors are in editorial meetings, dealing with art directors and publicity people, plus they’re juggling multiple projects and trying to get their pet manuscripts approved for publication. So the average editor does very little editing. One former editor at Simon and Schuster told me that her work was about 5% editing and 95% “everything else.” Maybe editors need editors, and editors should be called something else since they don’t do it much? :)
When I worked as an editor, I made the worst money of my post-college professional life, when you broke it down by the hour. I have never worked more hours.
I don’t understand how good grammer has, over time, has gone the way of common sense.
Well, common sense does change with the times, and grammar does too!
As a philosophy professor I get to deal with poor grammar in two ways. The first is in the papers that I grade. Based on my experience, it is simply a matter of fact that poor grammar can impede communication. While I can generally sort out what the student might have meant, there are cases in which it is a considerable struggle and others in which there is actually no clear meaning at all. I do agree that people can have good ideas and yet be poor at expressing them. But, as with any work or craft, how things are put together matter. To use an analogy, I might have a brilliant idea for a painting but be a very poor painter. My paintings would thus not be very good and it would seem that my painting skill would matter (just as the skill to work with words matters).
The second is that I teach about critical thinking and clear communication. In addition to creating communication problems, there are also fallacies associated with errors (or intentional misuse) of grammar. For example, there is the classic fallacy of amphiboly. If one wonders whether grammar matters, ask Cyrus. :)
Great points, and excellent additions to the discussion. I work with some brilliant people who don’t express themselves in writing worth a darn, and so in writing at least they look a lot less brilliant. I argue that someone who can artfully use amphiboly communicates quite well, albeit manipulatively!
I very much enjoyed reading this article! I think it’s important to use good grammar when posting something that will be read by a lot of people, but people take it much too far when insisting on perfect grammar for instant messaging. I have tried this myself, and can say that it really isn’t worth the hassle! It’s stressful and really takes the ‘instant’ out of instant messaging.
There’s nothing instant about a thorough edit, that’s for sure.
Jim , congrats on being freshly press. English is my 2nd language and I constantly feel insecure about my writing, my grammar and everything else that comes with it. I believe that it’s very important to have good grammar and good writing skills. I even wrote a post about it and got contacted by an author of the book, I mentioned in my blog. I am very excited about it!!!!
http://rada55.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/i-need-my-dummy-book/
It is exciting that that one author reached out to you after you mentioned her book on your blog! As someone who was once more or less fluent in German, I do understand how it is to feel insecure about expressing yourself in a foreign language!
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I wholeheartedly agree. I think allegiance to good grammar greatly depends on the forum in which you’re writing. However, I will say that for me, since I am somewhat of a word geek, a misspelling or poor grammar often gets in the way of grasping someone’s good ideas.
Congrats on being Freshly Pressed. I was recently Freshly Pressed as well. And a fellow Hoosier :)
It has been very exciting to see all the comments today thanks to being Freshly Pressed! I agree that word geeks like us generally have a heightened sensitivity to errors in others’ writing. I try not to let it get in my way!
I agree that perfectionist is a waste of time and at worst pathological… though I live in a working environment filled with perfectionists and start becoming one…
Resist!!
As an English instructor, the misuse of “it’s” vs. “its” still makes me cringe; with grammar and spell checks so astute these days, it’s hard for me to accept some careless errors. But I make ’em too. Nice post.
I am pretty embarrassed when I find a mistake in my writing, but I’m trying to relax about it!
It is interesting to me – that you leave speling to the last go through …
It’s just about the best value I can give with my time. If the author’s work is so poorly organized that no reader could penetrate it, I am adding much more value by fixing the organization than I would by fixing spelling.
I liked the post and pretty much agree. I do think a lot depends on what and why you are writing. I have three blogs–and I am new to writing. One blog I work hard to be correct in spelling and grammar because I am on a mission with it. One of the blogs is just fun and I write like I talk so some spelling is more how it sounds when I speak–like outta instead of out of–and same with grammar. The third blog is somewhere in between.
Fortunately, I do not write to pay the bills.
Congrats on the FP–it’s often how I find new (to me) blogs.
Yeah, if I blogged to pay the bills, I’d go broke!
I’m an editor by profession, and while I agree that the occasional split infinitive or misspelled word is no big deal, using correct grammar can really aid understanding, particularly when writing about highly technical topics. Sentence structure (noun-verb-object) is important for reader understanding, and grammatical principles like using parallel construction or avoiding passive voice and nominalizations can go a long way toward making text more readable. Grammar is important, terribly important to clear communication.
It doesn’t hurt to show some initiative and care by taking time to proofread work and write well within a grammatically correct framework. Good writers do it all the time.
Michele
No argument here. I wish more people would learn the basics and make them habit. It would make editors’ jobs a lot easier!
I think the importance of grammar is relative to the tone of the writing.
A book for example, put in front of an editor? I think that book should strive for near perfect grammar.
A Facebook post? I think grammar is all but irrelevant in that situation.
It’s like if you are in a bar with your pals and you say, “I got to go.” And then you get an unsolicited grammar correction from one of your pals. Relaxed situations = relaxed grammar rules.
One time, I even went off on a bit of a rant about it: http://futuretom.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/congratulations-master-of-homonyms/
A little bit nasty there, but I find it really unattractive when people posture as intellectuals on Facebook. There’s a whole Facebook page where you can “like” the correct usage of several similar-sounding words, and I think it really comes off as petulant and intellectually insecure.
But on the other hand, it’s very odd when someone decides to start a blog, or to write a novel, and then they start putting their stuff out there, and it turns out they don’t even have a basic grasp on the written language.
I’d respond to this comment, but I got to go. ;-)
Very Funny! I have a pseudo intellectual 17 year old who strings a few impressive words together. He even assumes the I’m-a-very-clever-person pose, but I won’t be tricked. I’m confident that he has no idea he just spoke gibberish.
mmmm – sounds like another excuse for people to be lazy and not check their work, kind of like “I’ll do a half-ar**ed attempt and that will be good enough, no one is going to care”
Where does it end? 20 years later it will be “ok as long as they can mumble and wag a finger it’s fine, talking in well constructed, understanable sentences isn’t that important”
I certainly don’t advocate half-hearted attempts. I just don’t think that polishing an e-mail to a friend, or even a comment on a blog, to a high sheen is worth the time it takes.
Grammar mistakes are one thing, and if the ideas are good can be overlooked. Grammar laziness is something altogether. There are writers, especially on blogs, who never capitalize things and have extremely poor grammar from beginning to end. If they can’t be bothered to learn basic grammar and punctuation, how can I be sure they have taken to time to flesh out the ideas they are presenting? If you have good ideas but struggle with grammar, get someone to edit your writing. That’s my two-cents worth. Thanks for a great article, and congratulations on being Freshly Pressed. Peace, Linda
I certainly don’t advocate laziness. I would love to see schools do a better job of teaching children how to write, and help them build good writing habits.
I wish WordPress would take your post into consideration. After reading the 5 ways to get your blog post on Freshly Pressed, no. 4 was spelling. They state that spelling was important in order to be considered for such a honorable position on the front page. Well someone isn’t taking that rule into serious consideration. After painfully getting through a Freshly Pressed post yesterday, I had come across 5 misspelled words and grammatical errors out the wazoo. Yet, there they were, front and center. And the post wasn’t that great to begin with.
I’m one of those people that will read and reread my blog posts until no more of those squiggly red lines are present. Then I do my best with the grammar. Punctuation is not my forte. I’m not a writer, nor do I aspire to be. But I’ll be damn if I’m going to bang out a blog post and have it look like Larry the Cable Guy wrote it after 6 beers.
I understand, too, that nobody is perfect. I’m right there with my hand held high. But it’s just common sense to look your work over. No, we’re not suppose to judge people on what they write, but HOW they right does leave an impression.
And congrats on being Freshly Pressed. I guess you met all the requirements!
And there’s a spelling error right at the end…should be WRITE, not RIGHT. Damn, can’t edit it either.
Well, I do think the 5 Ways are guidelines, not hard-and fast rules. Truth be told, this post was not one that I put my heart and soul into. I post twice a week — I like the discipline of it. I needed a post for today, so I cooked this one up and knocked it out in an hour. I’ve poured myself into several other posts on this blog and those get about zero traffic. Life’s not fair sometimes!
*pouting* no it’s not!
:-)
yeah, but this one post was just really poorly written. But WordPress, despite the massive errors, decided to feature it anyway. Maybe I won’t be so anal with my next posts. I just think having the least amount of errors in a post and having it grammatically correct as much as possible is just easier on the reader.
I hear ya though on the “pouring” yourself into a post and zippo reactions. Frustrating!
Thanks for replying!
I am shocked that spelling, grammar, and punctuation are reserved for your last pass. Window dressing?! Pshaw! Often when I catch errors so basic as those, I stop reading. Carelessness with the very core of our communication practices tells me that an author is disorganized or uneducated; it is a complete distraction and turn off. I think the elementary mistakes should be the very first ones addressed– otherwise the audience could (and maybe should) lose some respect for the author and the ideas being expressed. To me, reading and re-reading something that is technically perfect, complex, and creative is a sensual process. Muddling up good ideas with disregard for the rules of language makes them impossible to enjoy for grammar whores like me.
And now I’m all paranoid you’re going to edit my comment…
I don’t edit unless I’m asked, and even then I often decline!
I created my editorial strategy because time was always too short. I had to fix the biggest problems first. You would not believe some of the messes authors submitted to me that I had to sort out. Spelling, punctuation, and minor grammar gaffes were the least of the trouble! I did tend fix major grammar issues in the first two levels of edit.
I have no doubt that there is not a human on the planet, that if they had the opportunity, early education in their lives, would have been their number one priority. Such is the case for me, since I enjoy writing non-profit published poetry over the last five years. Having these skills pace the emotional level of one’s written work, as well as bring clarity to its creation.
I am blessed in being married to an extremely smart, and college educated woman. At times it hurts to have her review my work, but still the end result is always better than the first draft.
Having someone else review your work sure can be painful, but if you choose that person well, it can really sharpen you.
this was real good for me to read so I know that my writing now will improve as it gets better I’m happy too because also someone once told me once that I have trouble with run on sentences but I like infinity alot so I’ve always hated to use periods you know I don’t like question marks either but now I feel ok cause you said so and I like you I think I mean you seem nice
Thanks for the chuckle!
I know that good spelling doesn’t = intelligence. But, when someone can’t be bothered to learn (or use) proper grammar and at least TRY to spell properly, it not only grates on my nerves, but it makes me respect them less. I’m not a grammar nazi by any means (I make mistakes myself) but if someone repeatedly makes the your/you’re mistake, it makes my blood boil.
I hear you. I’ve had to learn to let stuff like you’re/your slide off my back.
Of the many people I know who confuse its and it’s, two come to mind in reading your post:
One is a brilliant writer. He is clever, innovative, and entertaining. His work is a joy to read and it is clear that he considers his audience when writing. I have no trouble overlooking its/it’s and rarely even notice anymore.
The other, for whom clear communication is a professional requirement, comes across as careless, disorganized, and rude. Every single time I see the its/it’s error, I am annoyed beyond reason.
I am not sure what my point is, but there you have it!
Congratulations on being Freshly Pressed.
I think you make a nice distinction there. How much the author engages you does affect how you perceive mistakes they make in their work.
I am so with you. I’m not only annoyed by the misused it’s and there’s of the grammatical world but also using this, they, and it as empty subjects. Most of all, I can’t believe how many good writers throw blog posts out there that contain typos. Maybe I’m Anal Anderson about that stuff, but I go nuts when I find mistakes in my stuff. I’m also a hypocrite though when it comes to the shorthand version of texting and modern writing. idk, maybe its nbd.
http://www.eduClaytion.com
Who wants to write a perfectly polished text message? It would take way too long!
This former editor had to laugh when a child’s teacher sent home a note about “arrangement” of alternate lessons being spelled “arraignment.” It took a lot of self control on my part not to get out a red pencil and correct it. Good post and cheers for less perfectionism.
Thanks! I do find it amusing when a teacher makes a serious language gaffe. I feel like they’re supposed to know better!
I have to say, although I am only a high school student and my texts and emails tend to border on the ludacrious with spelling and grammer issues (one text I sent went along the lines of “omg i miss u&sooooo wish u were here rite now im so lonly…”) I try my best to make sure my grammar and spelling in my writing is as right as I possibly can make it on my own (without the aide of professional editors).
And since I am working on a novel right now I understand the importance of proper grammar. Once I sent out a copy of a chapter to my friend and she sent it back all hilighted and covered with “What the crap is this supposed to mean”s and “huh?”s as well as “this is a little wordy here, I don’t understand this” written across the bottom. So then I looked back and I realized, “holy crap! My grammar sucked! And it made no sense.”
So yeah, I guess that is why I check my grammar and spelling as often as I can.
I think you have a grasp on what kind of writing deserves attention to correctness and what doesn’t. I have found that as I have written over the years, I do better at getting it right the first time.
Ah ha! Finally an answer to a question I’ve often pondered when reading certain books: “How did all these typos slip past the editor???” It was really interesting to read about the four “passes” you’d make when editing a text, and that spelling and grammar were the last priority. And, I suppose I notice it because the rest of the edited text was flowing so nicely and making so much sense thanks to earlier edits. I appreciate this information. And, while I too get a little OCD about spelling and grammar (when reading other writers!), I could stand to remember that it really isn’t as important as getting your point across. Thanks!
Editorial secrets revealed! Actually, my editorial system was born of a need to survive. I was headed toward an early grave trying to make everyone’s text perfect.
I agree that an error like “it’s” instead of “its” does not usually confuse the reader and most people will not even notice the mistake. And typos are to be expected in text messages and Facebook posts. But when people use apostrophes to make plurals (carrot’s instead of carrots) or spell basic words incorrectly, I have to wonder how they ever made it out of third grade. That so many people DID make it out of elementary school with such abysmal writing skills speaks volumes about the quality of our public education system. It is even worse when someone goes into a writing (or editing!) profession without learning basic English grammar or punctuation.
I also find it quite selfish when people say they shouldn’t have to use proper grammar and spelling because we will be able to figure out what they mean without it. If you don’t care enough to write coherently, why should I spend extra time trying to figure out what you mean? If you don’t know how to spell something (a clue would be if you have spelled one word three different ways in the same document) look it up. And while you’re at it, make sure the word you are trying to spell means what you think it means.
As for non-native English speakers: I find they usually have better grammar, spelling and punctuation than native speakers. And the only way to learn is to practice. But I would ask that they don’t try to become the editor of an English-language publication until they are fluent.
Not everybody can write. I know some great people, hard workers, love their families, who can barely write a coherent sentence. Bless their hearts.
As a Perfectionist – I used to get angry at others mistakes – Now I Kno taht we ohnly nd to undastnd teh Contxt of The Peice to accuratly reed it – I have Far Less Quibbles about Spelling & Grammar Mistakes – Thanx for Your Post – Rique’
Hahahahaha!
kinda true. But I dunno if u dont have any style then the read isnt anything someones going to rememeber. Kinda like if ur wearing good mismatched clothes i guess.
No doubt about it, you have to have something worthwhile to say and say it in an engaging way.
@Jen above: 100% in agreement. Rules matter! Sure, sometimes they are meant to be broken for reasons of expression, artistry or humour, but I think it’s important to know the rules so that you know -how- to break them when the time is right.
Thank U! I mean Thank You :-) Your writing and grammar had me at Hello…….I try and I try…..however I will never be an editor and yet I Write……thus…..I shall subscribe to your blog in the hopes of conveying my voice in a more clear and concise manner; via text on paper.
Thanks for stopping by!
As a part-time instructor of undergraduate business communications and a former journalist, I can tell you that it’s a slippery slope not caring “enough” when you’re young about what I call “the GPS skills:” grammar/punctuation/spelling.
The first time I let my students slip by on poor GPS, they slip on other things. The whole idea is attention to detail, and if you don’t care, you don’t learn. And if you don’t learn, one day you’ll simply wish you had.
Bravo, bravo, BRAVO, you are the type of teacher we really need! I love “GPS”! I think it’s true if you let students slip in that area it’s a slippery slope indeed.
I can’t argue your point. Everybody needs to learn how to pay attention to detail. We all have different natural abilities there, but a lot of it is habit that can be learned.
Incorrect grammar always drives me crazy! I don’t want to go overboard, but a good reread never hurt anyone!
evelyngarone.com
I agree: it sticks out like a sore thumb. Especially when reading the newspaper. Those writers are paid money to write their articles and they can’t spell better than a 12 year old? Insulting. It makes one question their credibility (as in educational background)to become writers. The most recent “School News” for parents arrived with no less than 5 spelling/grammatical errors made by the Principal! Way to role model!
I have to admit, I hate to see errors in anything coming from my kids’ schools. I think they need to be good role models too.
In our college I frequently get missives from the Head of Communications who appears to have no actual idea on where sentences should begin and end, what to do with commas, nor how to relate pronouns to their respective nouns (preferring instead to leave it to the reader to discover whether “they” refers to staff, students, or a new set of rules).
Of course, it doesn’t much matter since the indecipherable jargon negates any chance of extracting meaning in the first place.
Maybe he doesn’t want to be understood, so that when things go badly he can blame you!
I’m making the same point: Don’t go overboard, just give your writing the right amount of attention before you send it out!
I love this post. Good stuff. Congrats on being Freshly Pressed!
http://gbengaawomodu.wordpress.com
Thank you!!
I am a teacher and I hate bad grammar. It drives me crazy but children in my school aren’t taught proper grammar – they learn it in my World Language classes not in English class. Punctuation doesn’t irk me as much – but I do hate the use of a comma before AND. I was taught – way back when – no comma. It makes me cringe.
I was taught “and” if the two thoughts are different, and if they are related, no “and”. I think there are definitely different schools of thought on using “and”.
I hate the increasing use of “‘” before “s” — any “s”! For instance, “tree’s”. Geez. HATE that. Although I wish people knew how to use “‘”, I’ve come to believe not using it at all is better than throwing it in willy-nilly.
Ah yes, out here in Indiana we call that the rural apostrophe. You see it on homemade roadside signs all the time: Tomato’s.
Quite sadly, you see it all the time in urban area signs, too. It’s pervasive. Or should I have said “sign’s”?! Sigh.
I have to admit, commas are one of my bugaboos. I think I overuse them. Yet when I go back and take some out, it all looks weird, and I put them back in!
I love good grammar! Correct spelling, grammar and punctuation make things so much clearer, at least in writing. Obviously, a quick email to friends is a whole lot different than your resume. I’m hoping people don’t think creatively written resumes which lack correct spelling or grammar are acceptable in the marketplace.
I agree in general with Penelope Trunk that creativity and ideas are important, but don’t buy the enthusiasm angle. Unfortunately, some of the most enthusiastic people are also the dumbest and least original, so enthusiasm is no substitute for truly interesting ideas. However, if you’re very original and state your ideas well, they’re so much easier to understand, and grammar, spelling, punctuation, et al., are the foundation for clarity. In my opinion it’s just lazy to skip them.
I also agree that perfection can bog you down. It’s nice to strive for, but only within reason. I like your method of editing and think that everyone who suffers from perfectionism should look at their own methods and remember to perfect the important stuff first, then work down to the smaller issues, if there is time. You do have to let go and at a certain point (and every perfectionist knows where it is for them) it’s time to step back and let whatever you’re doing be what it is, without any more tweaking. Or at least let it rest overnight and look at it with fresh eyes another day!
Great post!
I have been so stuck in my perfectionism that I literally wore myself out as an editor trying to make everyone’s writing perfect. This is actually what gave birth to my editorial system. It was self-preservation.
I think this is sometimes why systems come about, so that people can relax a bit. Good for you. A good system is a valuable thing. I used to teach software (how to use it) and was always discovering systems for doing certain complicated things. I wrote them down on handout sheets so I didn’t have to explain and explain and explain, and that’s when I realized systems/rules/etc. can be a very good thing. They can actually make your life easier if you use them correctly.
I’ll bet you need a great eye for detail when you’re an editor. I could not be an editor, myself, because I can be a bit erratic. Kudos to you for doing it well and realizing you needed a system in order to do your best for each editing job that came your way.
Great post! After using my blog to support my university course I eventually got tired of obsessing over grammar and punctuation. It felt good to write in a more casual (or, ahem, lazy) style when it was all over, but I still think that people should maintain high standards when necessary. Congratulations on being freshly pressed!
I think you’ve found a good balance then!
[…] I am thrilled to have been Freshly Pressed today. I hope you'll poke around the blog and, if you like what you see, subscribe! ย Use the handy links at right. Blogger Penelope Trunk wrote last year in defense of poor grammar. And then recently she did it again. She claims that it's better toย judge people by their ideas, creativity, andย enthusiasmย than by how well they write. The implication is that as long as they can get their ideas across, the g … Read More […]
Great post! I do think that correct grammar and spelling counts for a lot, and I do my best to write as flawlessly as possible for everything but text messages. If I don’t know who I’m writing to, I don’t want them to think I’m careless or uneducated, even for a second. But that’s just me. I have very few discernible skills, so I try to hone them to perfection — even if that means re-reading a blog post up to five times before clicking “Publish”. So I would definitely agree with you on the grammar debate, but I’d take the extreme side because of my own personal neuroses :)
I have been known to edit my blog posts five or even more times before posting. I must admit, I sometimes change old blog posts when I find a better way to say something. So maybe I need to take my own advice!
[…] I am thrilled to have been Freshly Pressed today. I hope you'll poke around the blog and, if you like what you see, subscribe! ย Use the handy links at right. Blogger Penelope Trunk wrote last year in defense of poor grammar. And then recently she did it again. She claims that it's better toย judge people by their ideas, creativity, andย enthusiasmย than by how well they write. The implication is that as long as they can get their ideas across, the g … Read More […]
[…] I am thrilled to have been Freshly Pressed today. I hope you'll poke around the blog and, if you like what you see, subscribe! ย Use the handy links at right. Blogger Penelope Trunk wrote last year in defense of poor grammar. And then recently she did it again. She claims that it's better toย judge people by their ideas, creativity, andย enthusiasmย than by how well they write. The implication is that as long as they can get their ideas across, the g … Read More […]
Thank you! Really good points. I enjoyed this post and will go have a look at the rest of your blog. :)
An acquaintance of mine once told me that when it came to fiction he was more “into a good story with cool characters than the thing being grammatically correct”. I didn’t know what to tell him. To me, that’s like saying, “I’m really more interested in the walls of a house than the floor.” It’s natural to slip up and make a few minor mistakes, but I think the basic structure of the grammar has to be there to support the story with its (potentially) interesting plot and characters.
I hope you like what you see on my blog and decide to subscribe!
I admitt I’m not the best on grammar and punctuation and spelling now, get it over with.I don’t generally mind too much if people dont have !00% correct useage of words, becuase in the end words are words, they were decided by those who wrote the dictionary, if it had been someone else who wrote it, (or colaboratively wrote it) words could, and probably would, have very different spellings.
But.
What does annoy me is the way people, shamefully it seems to be mostly my generation, add extra letters onto words, use symbols when typing or texting and having randomly placed capital letters. For example, 0mD, 1a$t nYtt wazzZ wE11 baNggg1Ng mAyTEee.
1) it makes reading alot harder. 2) surely typing like that must take longer than typing normally anyway? and 3) it looks stupid. I will tell people if they spell something incorrectly, that is if i notice, but when people type nonsense like that, I cannot see the point because they are usually too thick to understand ‘proper’ english anyway. My fear is now my genreation is too lazy to type properly, the language will eventually deteriorate so much the previous example of what I hate will become the norm.
See, and commenting on a blog is a perfect example of a place where pushing yourself to get it right doesn’t add much value.
Good stuff! I agree with your points and with some of Penelope’s as well. Spelling is absolutely important. When writing a non-factual (or factual for that matter) article, however, I think it keeps the reader interested when using a less than stern format.
Thanks for this. I enjoyed it. Congrats on being Freshly Pressed!
Darlene
I’m glad you stopped by!
I am extremely proud of my impeccable grammar and punctuation. It sets me apart from the masses. I have a natural propensity for it, and it can make reading problematic, especially while reading the newspaper in my small town or blog articles that are unedited. I will never stop reading, despite the minor irritation of noticing every little mistake.
Though I’m a terrible speller, I am one of those perfectionists who proofread text and e-mail messages. I wouldn’t have it any other way! I love the English language and delight at its nuances and potential for immense beauty. While I admit that I am not writing high literature, order in my writing is a comfort to me. For me, it is not restrictive to adhere to the rules of grammar; it is freeing. As with all art, one must know the rules before one can know how to break them and achieve the desired effect.
I admit to a fair amount of pride in my grammar, punctuation, and spelling, too.
I’m not a grammar Nazi, but a narrative does have to make sense. I find punctuation to be more important than spelling, if one or the other has to go. Good writing skills come with practice and a with a basic knowledge of the rules of grammar. Once you know the rules, you can play, but not before!
I agree with you, punctuation before spelling.
While too much spoils everything, I would prefer to err on the side of too much where grammar, spelling, whatnot is concerned. The reason is simple: Sloppy language leads to ambiguities and ambiguities lead to misunderstandings. A one-in-ten risk of misunderstanding leads to ten misunderstandings per one hundred faulty sentences—and even a one-in-a-hundred risk leaves us with one misunderstanding. (Notably, this applies even to errors that appear harmless. While no one will misunderstand “Come here Peter!” due to the left out comma, the exact same error in a more unfortunate sentence could be highly problematic: “Prosecute, Peter!” and “Prosecute Peter!”, e.g., are very different in meaning.)
In addition, it can pay to bear in mind that language mistakes do, on average, say something about intelligence, education, and ability to think logically. Language is far from a perfekt guideline, but can still serve as a rough indicator of various abilities or deficiencies. Notably, many language errors arise from an inability of basic reasoning. Could I or could I not care less?
A particular problematic word is “their”, when abused as a generic singular instead “he”. Through a mixture of stupidity and absurd PC excesses, even entirely absurd uses like “I met my cousin. They had lost weight.” have become common. (I write “entirely absurd”, seeing that the author almost certainly knew what sex the cousin had—and should have used “he” or “she” as appropriate.) This statement could mean e.g. that “they” was abused, that a plural “s” was missing from “cousins”, that the author had inadvertently skipped a step and started to talk about the cousin’s children, or that two sentences from different contexts had somehow ended up next to each other by accident.
Part of my point is that there are cases where understanding is crucial and cases where it’s not. That sounds weird now that I’ve written it! But if I make a gaffe in replying to this deluge of comments today what’s the worst that can happen?
good post :-)
Thanks for checking it out!
Great blog. I’m afraid I’m guilty of being a grammar Nazi. I was taught the importance of spelling and punctuation at school and this, if nothing else, has stayed with me throughout my adult life. I can understand what previous posters have said about slight spelling mistakes etc. not putting them off but I’ve always been of the opinion that first impressions count and often your resume IS that first impression. (Dyslexia and other genuine difficulties aside of course). I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, perfect in my writing but I despise the recent trend of text speak and unintelligible abbreviations and the ‘content is more important than spelling or grammar’ that my aunt was told when attending a parents’ evening at my cousin’s school.
The English language is a minefield as it is but sometimes, just the mis-spelling of one word can have consequences.
There are times when what you write is your first or only impression on someone, and that impression needs to be good. Resumes are like that, and so I advocate spending the time on the details and having someone else review it.
I like your thinking. I’ve had a blind spot about the apostrophe “s” since I discovered there was one. However, the misuse of “affect” and “effect” by people who should know better gets me like a stone in my shoe. I remove the stone and accept that there is meaning and just get over it. But there’s always a sore spot where it was.
Nicely put!
The only thing worse than a grammar Nazi is a real Nazi who slaughters Jews, gays and gypsies.
Yes, Christopher. They’re definitely almost alike.
No doubt about it.
I’ve always had a pet peeve for incorrect spelling and grammar…but when it boils down to it…if a writer can write well and to the core of what she/he wishes to address, in an engaging and insightful manner, these petty errors somehow do not become as glaring. If I am into a blog, a book, a post…I will be more willing to forgive syntax problems if the intent and heart behind each piece is true and moving. J.K. Rowling could have had 100 of spelling errors, and I wouldn’t have minded (the perfectionist in my head would have, but I would have just told her to shut up and enjoy the ride!)
Great post…congrats on FP!
I think you’ve nailed it. This is the essence of what I was trying to get at.
I love punctuation!
I agree with the point about putting more energy into conveying your ideas than perfecting grammar and punctuatin. But, I’ve always liked using punctuation to makemy writing more organic and flowing… I like to play with pauses in speech while writing and making the reading experience feel like a conversation instead of a lecture.
By the way my favorite piece of punctuation isalways the elipses…
Don’t stop howling…
OhKami’s Voice
ohkamisvoice.com
No argument from me — it feels great to get a sentence to feel just right. Sometimes I spend time on a blog post doing that just because it feels good.
While an improperly spelled word may not completely befuddle readers is can leave a very bad taste in their mouths. I know that every time I find a spelling error in a book I have a little less respect for the author, but maybe that’s just me.
I’m more willing to overlook an error if the author’s writing is engaging.
[…] Blog: Defending good grammar, sort of […]
working in corporations definitely puts a focus on proper writing, grammar, and spelling. it depends on context. I know my bosses barely used English when writing an email to me, but in pitches, the verbiage was spotless.
in business, proper grammar and spelling are hygiene checks. if you don’t pass that minimum, you won’t get to step 2.
as a woman, i think i appreciate style, fluidity, and rhythm in writing more than men do – who i think are more content-driven.
http://www.atomsforgreen.wordpress.com
I really don’t mean to snark, but do corporations no longer capitalise the first letters of a sentence anymore?
this is a blog. not a corporation.
and you just did snark. so that’s another fail.
damn. i do believe your write.
Sounds like your bosses have decided where it’s important to apply the polish!
[…] College people should know how to spell simple words like “calendar” and “ice cream”. I don’t care about them getting the point across with bad grammar because the message they are sending to me is a major turn-off. I am thrilled to have been Freshly Pressed today. I hope you'll poke around the blog and, if you like what you see, subscribe! ย Use the handy links at right. Blogger Penelope Trunk wrote last year in defense of poor grammar. And then recently she did it again. She claims that it's better toย judge people by their ideas, creativity, andย enthusiasmย than by how well they write. The implication is that as long as they can get their ideas across, the g … Read More […]
[…] http://jimgrey.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/defending-good-grammar-sort-of/ […]
It’s true, simple things like confusing “it’s” and “its” and the double-dozen other common mistakes along that nature don’t interfere with comprehension — once you’ve backed up to re-read them so you can glean the intended word from the misused one. But other types of errors have a tendency to increase ambiguity.
I teach analytical writing at a city college in Toronto and my students will often claim that they can perfectly understand a sample sentence with bad grammar. But when I ask them to explain its meaning, I get two, three, or even more interpretations. It’s at this point they begin to realise that thinking you understand something is a lot different from actually understanding it.
But one thing I did learn from this — those students who are the worst readers are the ones most able to pick out the meaning of badly constructed sentences (providing the errors don’t lead to actual ambiguity).
The reason, I believe, is that poor grammar and incorrect words are like potholes. If you’re an insecure driver going ten miles an hour, most potholes aren’t much of a nuisance. But when you’re an experienced driver going 60, they can throw you right off the road.
Furthermore, grammar and logic are inexorably linked. Bad grammar all too often indicates bad logic. I’ve yet to read an essay from one of my students that is badly written yet has truly good ideas and arguments. They just don’t go to together.
This is a power-packed comment. If I say dog, and I have a Rottweiler and you have a poodle, we are not talking about the same thing, but we don’t know it.
I like your insight about the worst readers being best able to grapple with poor writing. I’m going to chew on it.
why do i turn into a 3rd grader when it comes to commenting, facebook twitter yet in all other walks of life i am a grammar nazi?
http://dearexgirlfriend.com/
Could it be because you understand that it’s okay to toss off a quick comment on a blog?
“Recovering Perfectionist”, how did you do that?
Funny post :)
Like anything else, I began to recover when my perfectionism brought me to rock bottom. I saw that I couldn’t keep being a perfectionist and stay sane!
Bad grammar is annoying, but then so are people who correct it. It’s a catch-22.
My head hurts just thinking about it!
Haha, I’m sorry, I was blind-sided by your picture, Jamminjabber.
I don’t mind being corrected when its appropriate. What gets my goose is when I’m in the middle of a conversation and I’m stoped to hear the ‘correct’ pronunciation of something.
If it is that important, it can wait until I’ve finished what I’m saying.
Thats like tripping a dancer!
OMG! I love that cat! We all need a grammar Nazi cat at our sides. As a writer for my own blogs and as a freelancer; the level of bad English astounds me daily. Not to mention the lack of any sort of voice or passion, but that is another topic for another day.
Voice and passion are way harder than grammar, punctuation, and spelling. Way harder. If you page through my blog, you’ll find times when I have voice and passion, and times when I very clearly don’t.
Love that cat, too! GREAT!!
Should have credited icanhascheezburger.com — I used the LOLbuilder to make it.
Credit goes to the LOL builder at icanhascheezburger.com!
You can make your own at icanhascheezburger.com!
i’m a big believer of content over any number of grammar or punctuation errors. and thank god for spell check. i’ve been told several times that i should hire an editor. no, make that a good editor. or is that an oxymoron? probably not. at any rate, i haven’t done it yet. tossing good money after bad prose or some such thing.
It’s the substance of Penelope’s post — get the ideas out there, let the perfectionists roll their eyes over the grammar mistakes.
Sometimes when I’m snooping/reading my kids facebook or text messages I think I’m reading the shorthand of the 2000’s.
i.e. r u home cuz i miss u . cuz i wanna come with da bike.
It’s like you have to decipher everything.
But then I guess that’s a whole other post.
http://lifebehindthemakeupcounter.wordpress.com/
I hear you. I feel the same way when I get an e-mail from my 13-year-old.
Awesome article! Great ideas. I agree with you. It’s more important to get your point across. My readers have been asking me to do a grammar post, but I didn’t know how to explain to them that it is more important to write clearly and effectively, and not worry too much about grammar. Maybe I’ll just link to your post. :)
Congrats on being freshly pressed. I was there a couple of weeks ago. It’s a great feeling, but it’s also overwhelming!
http://www.thecourage2create.com
This is my second brush with Freshly Pressed this year … how did I get so lucky?
Great post. I definitely agree. In every day life good grammar is probably not that important, but if you are publishing a ‘great work’ or something with a little prestige, than it should be perfect. That’s what I think. People who won’t grasp the rules of writing, I think, are just being lazy.
And there’s a whole spectrum in between of things written that deserve varying levels of attention to detail.
Loved your post. I scanned through it and I think I got the highlights. Myself, I’m not much of a reader because I get bored easily, or a writer because I understand, virtually, nothing about stucture or form or discipline in any area of my life, let alone writing. which is why I just do my single panel cartoon, “Head on the Table” at Theaterwise.wordpress.com.
My point is, that if you get the urge to edit something, try my blog. For someone of your talent it would be quick and easy and it would get that edit monkey off of your back for a while.
This isn’t about me. It’s about you. Go ahead, induldge yourself. (Did I spell induldge right? I would look it up, but why bother, you know what I mean.)
My talents are certainly rumored.
As a high school English teacher, I suspect that, at least for our young people, a reminder not to obsess over grammar and spelling is not nearly as needed as a reminder that grammar and spelling do matter in some situations. I regularly get papers turned in that are written in “text message.” However, for those of us (like me) who get a little obsessive about writing things correctly, the reminder is refreshing. My only concern is that some people could use it as an excuse not to worry about grammar at all.
Agreed. There seems to have been a switch in emphasis somewhere along the way from learning the mechanics of writing to “just getting your ideas out,” but that was never followed up very well with teaching how to edit it into shape.
I know a couple of people who refuse to write because they feel they are bad spellers. I tell them spell check was invented for a reason, then they can do a sweep with the dictionary.
Language evolves with people. It can be different as long as your point is coming across.
Thanks for this!
Glad you liked it!
Great post :)
:) back!
Valuable information. I had writer’s block for twenty years; I was paralyzed by making grammatical mistakes, paralyzed by people thinking I was an idiot.
Older and wise enough now to not care about dotting my i’s and crossing my t’s, making mistakes perhaps the best way to learn the lesson. “Don’t sweat the little stuff, for it’s all little stuff.”
The spirit of your message enforces my new found credo: Do Your Best.
Thanks for cementing this.
Yes, perfectionism is paralyzing! I am still working on mine, but the more I relax, the more fun I have. I like “Do Your Best,” because your best varies. As long as you do whatever your best is today, no reason to ever worry.
The problem is when the younger generations don’t know the rules of grammar to begin with. It is one thing to make a slip and confuse ‘your’ with ‘you’re’ or something like that, but I can speak at least for the young’uns of of Australia and say that grammar and spelling have gone well and truly out the door for generation Y and onwards (I’m a 20-yr-old gen-Y, one of those few who still respect the English language). I have to admit that I genuinely struggle sometimes to understand what some Facebook users are trying to convey. As each new generation simplifies the language more and more, successive generations will be less able to communicate precisely and about complex ideas. Already, at a glance, they seem stupid and disrespectful. It’s depressing to watch.
You’re right — a good command of language and how it works is what makes us able to communicate and understand complex ideas. This is ultimately why literacy is important.
Hi nice post. I write to express my feelings and thoughts and not to impress people. I signed up for wordpress.com bec. I don’t have time to write on my journal and since most of the time I spent it in front of my pc specially on my days off. I didn’t know that some people will find time to read your post and some would find time to comment. I always have a disclaimer at the end of my blog if I have some typo errors or if my subject-verb agreement are wrong..I don’t mind if people will correct my grammar. I write spontaneously, I don’t pause when I write. I write continuously while the train of thoughts are there. I don’t want to miss the idea. I felt that my mind and my hands are synchronized when I write. Well anyway for as long as I was able to say what I want to say on my blog I am fine with that. It’s my page, I write what I want to say, be it with wrong spelling or incorrect grammar, it’s my outlet to express my feelings and thoughts…it’s my page after all…good day..^^
It’s truly amazing how people will find your blog! I’m amazed by some of the readers I’ve attracted out of nowhere.
Congrats on being freshly pressed!! This topic makes me crazy after having spent the past few weeks grading papers –
I can well imagine!
This a struggle for me. I am a perfectionist, but there are many times when I give up on the idea of grammatically perfect sentence structure when writing. Grammar rules can lead to clunky writing, especially when trying not to end a sentence with a preposition. Other times, I tie my brain in knots attempting to figure out the best way to frame a complex thought involving two or more people of like gender, while allowing the reader to understand to whom each pronoun refers.
For me, much of writing is problem-solving. Perhaps the more experience I gain, the less I will be met with problems. [That is my hope, anyway.]
When I read a publication featuring spelling errors involving synonyms (your/you’re; they’re/their) or evidence a writer does not know the difference between possessives and plurals, I do think less of the writer. Is it a lack of basic education? Carelessness in proofreading? Whatever, the writer’s credibility diminshes in my view, especially in the realm of business.
So, I am not perfect, but I expect perfection of other writers – what an embarrassing admission! There’s no telling what people are thinking when they read my blog, after all.
I love your statement: “The trick…is in determining the point past which polish doesn’t pay…”
Thank you for a thought-provoking post. -Jen
http://sasfiction.wordpress.com
http://littlecreekvet.wordpress.com
I understand tying the brain in knots trying to figure out how to say something. I have learned that most of the time if I just relax, it comes out all right. I could easily go back and edit this very post, and spend two hours on it.
Ouch man! But itโs also true that idea has to come first. Giving importance to grammar every sentence or two limits my imagination and creativity. Sometimes when I focus on structure it took me light years to finish one paragraph. Hope to develop the skills few of your tribes enjoy. Great post.
When I write, I try to just let the ideas come, and then go back and edit it. Trying to do ideas and grammar at the same time bogs me down!
Such an interesting perspective. I used to be a perfectionist myself, then I moved to China to teach English. I’m happy when my students can communicate with me, regardless of how poor their grammar is. Though I must say that I tend to think written English requires a higher standard of grammar than spoken English does. It simply tends to be more formal than our everyday conversations.
Now that’s an interesting perspective, about your Chinese students!
If you will say that grammar, rhetoric (the art of persuasive writing) and writing style doesn’t matter, then I strongly will say to the person: then (strong, loud emphasis) demand people who have English language as their 2nd language or who are recent foreign language immigrants, that they must speak and write English properly. Don’t be a hypocrite, ok?
I hear this repeatedly over and over: second language English speakers who must learn English to survive in their newly adopted country, may eventually write and speak much more proper English than some native speakers.
Respect the language as a powerful tool by writing with clarity and persuasion for the right audience. There is room for making mistakes and taking some sentence stylistic shortcuts only in one-to-one conversations with close friends and family members who tend be more forgiving since they know the writer beyond the written word.
I do get pissed off at myself for making grammatical errors for any business writing –meaning any emails, reports or any other documents within my paid job. But even in volunteer work, over the years, where I do write for an organization’s blog or their newsletter, I do want my writing to be persuasive or even better inspiring as well as grammatically correct. I know I have fallen down on the latter at times. It depends on how much I can or want to invest.
If a person does seem to naturally love writing but has a genuine lower level of literacy, then it’s easier to “forgive” but it doesn’t make reading their document or blog post, any easier.
I love language. I love English, and I also love German, which I wish I had more opportunity to speak. But I recognize that not everybody loves language, not even some of the authors I’ve edited, and no matter how much I may beat my chest at them they’re not ever going to get it.
I think the more you write (and read, for that matter) the less you have to worry about grammar. It becomes instinctive. Such inherent grasp of the rules allows you to be more creative, take chances. Spell check programs tend to sanitize creativity, blunt the edges. I like reading from pages sharp enough to poke me in the eye. I strive to write that way as well. If my spell check program ranked infractions by frequency, “fragments” would be at the top of the list with “contractions” close behind.
I agree. I’ve found that the more I practice writing, the more easily the mechanics have come.
In my opinion, grammar does matter! I often point out grammatical flaws although I’m far from perfect myself. I know not everyone can write very well, but sometimes the grammar is so bad I have difficulty understanding what’s being said! I don’t mind, say, a text message from a friend. But what makes me laugh is when errors show up on a sign or brochure. Something “official.” There’s a sign over a business in my town that displays “it’s” instead of “its.” It’s not that hard! Even if the important part is getting the idea out there.
Sure, grammar matters! It’s perfectionism I’m really arguing against.
Thank you for this post! You don’t understand the nightmares I have after reading comments made on facebook…personally, I think we are all doomed. All the kids in school have no idea what they are doing. There will be a split – those who can spell and those who cannot. Wonder how easy they will find things once they realise that they can only communicate with those that have a similar grasp of language.
Please, save us all!
Submeg
http://submeg.wordpress.com/
I don’t know if it’s as bad as all that. My 13-year-old son’s Facebook posts are frightening but when he applies himself, such as on a paper for school, he does all right.
Of course spelling, punctuation and grammar are important. What is wrong with trying to do something correctly? Anyway, my grade 5 teacher, Mrs Folliet, would come back from her grave and make me stand on my chair if I made a mistake.
I think it’s more powerful to teach children the fundamentals of writing and give them lots of practice so that they are more likely to write well naturally when they’re older.
I am a perfectionist as well as a homeschool mom. To me, grammar is important and poor grammar is a sign of either ignorance or laziness. And today with almost all writing being done on computer, there is no excuse for poor grammar. All you have to do is notice the red lines under your text, or even do a spell check after. However, I tell my children this is not an excuse not to learn the correct way of writing. Being able to express yourself clearly and well is important.
On the other hand, I agree that there are times that grammar is not important. Text messages are one example, and chatting with friends online is another–even though I personally have a very hard time letting errors go even in those venues!
One of my sons, who is a linguist, says that not all of what I call poor grammar is actually error. He says that it is in fact the evolution to the next stage of English. He also says that I don’t have to like it, but I will have to live with it!
Poor grammar can be but is not always, a sign of ignorance or laziness. If I were to write something with poor grammar, you can bet I was being lazy. I’ve known a few people, however, for whom grammar was an undecipherable puzzle.
I have to wonder, however, for how many of those people it is because the were never really taught grammar when they were young.
Bad grammar and prelling drives me nuts, and I can’t read something properly if it’s full of the wrong words.
I see “Your going to she shops” and my brain goes: WOAH, what?! You OWN “going to the sho”- oohhhhh no, wait, I see now.
Then I lose my place and my train of thought.
Call me pedantic, but I figure that if I spent 13 years of my life at school, I would like to see it as 13 years well spent. It’s not too hard to add a few apostrophe’s and “e”‘s here and there.
Look at me, ranting about spelling and then SPELLING “SPELLING” WRONG. Apologies, hahaha
Look at me, ranting about spelling and then SPELLING “SPELLING” WRONG. As well as “the”, Gah, I’m a disgrace. Apologies, hahaha
Look at me, ranting about spelling and then SPELLING “SPELLING” WRONG. As well as “the”. Gah, I’m a disgrace. Apologies, hahaha
No worries, you’re among friends!
If there are spelling, grammer or punctuation errors in a written piece, I am so busy being annoyed at the poor editing that I stop paying attention to what has actually been written. About the only thing that is more annoying is people who feel the need to underline these errors in library books – I’m an inveterate borrower and this makes me positively crazy. Here is an interesting thing – the last and greatest with the 20somethings – correct spelling and grammer in texts. No kidding. My kids and their friends now laugh if you use the once popular contractions (LOL WRU etc). I only noticed this in the last couple of months, but it’s an interesting phenomenom. Maybe it’s all the QUERTY keyboards and smartphones. Congrat’s on being Freshly Pressed!
I get that. I’ve had to learn how to tune out the errors and look for the substance. I think my days as a writer and editor have given me an unusually heightened ability to notice those errors, of course.
Dear Jim: I tutor adults and children in mathematics and English. Having a good grasp of grammar and not catching all your mistakes is one thing. Not having any idea that writing “lite” for “light” in a professional e-mail is entirely another. What the anti-grammanazi blogger that you reacted to was overly pointed criticism of surface issues that overlooked content and brilliance and I agree with her. However, if a writer wants to be taken seriously, even by his or her friends in a casual e-mail, knowing how to make subjects and verbs agree can make a big difference on the reader’s perception of your content. Let me use an analogy. You spend hours finding the perfect birthday present for a dear friend who is difficult to shop for. After all this time, you find that you have run out of time to get yourself ready for the party. Do you skip on the primping and self-presentation or do you put the gift in a plastic grocery bag to get there on time? Let’s suppose you comprise and hastily wrap the gift. The gift inside is perfect, the presentation shows a lack of preparation. No matter how perfect the gift, beside the pile of carefully wrapped presents for the host, yours looks like a wet stray that sneaked in one day and wouldn’t leave. Do first impressions matter? If so, your writing and grammar is the wrapping around which your brilliance is presented to the world. Let it be your best. Sincerely, David
Hey David,
I love that analogy! I’m gonna use it whenever I need to make a point about good grammar, if you don’t mind :)
Well argued, David.
Jim,
I just stopped by to say I really like your writing style and blog. I’m an amateur writer so the entry I happened to come across today really caught my interest. I plan to check in from time to time for more unintentional advice about writing.
thank you,
Adrienne
Thanks! I don’t write about writing much, but I’m glad you liked this post!
“The point past which polish doesn’t pay” will be my new mantra at deadline! Came home tonight with burnt eyeballs from agonizing over a few paragraphs that –big picture– were not worth the agony.
At deadline, all bets are off!